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For Free as well as private assistance telephone call 1800u00a0858u00a0858 or even visit gamblinghelponline.org.au.Dees can just trade Trac to ONE team|00:53 MELBOURNE v COLLINGWOODFriday August 23, 7:40 pm at the MCGMelbourne's Around 23 teamB: J.Lever, A.Tomlinson, J.McVeeHB: M.Hore, T.McDonald, C.SalemC: E.Langdon, J.Viney, A.Neal-BullenHF: J.Billings, H.Petty, K.ChandlerF: K.Pickett, B.Fritsch, J.van RooyenFOLL: M.Gawn - C, T.Sparrow, T.RiversI/ C: J.Bowey, B.Howes, K.Tholstrup, D.Turner, J.MelkshamEMG: M.Jefferson, T.Woewodin, K.BrownTeam Tips: The significant personal injury concern for the Dees is actually around midfielder Tom Sparrow, who was subbed out after injuring his ankle in the draw the Gold Shore last week. Father-son younger weapon Kynan Brown will be a like for like substitute for Sparrow, having documented 21 fingertips after being an unexpected emergency last week. Protector Andy Moniz-Wakefield was actually a strong artist in the VFL too, racking up 35 disposals as well as nine marks in a hefty loss. Ben Brown booted 6 goals in the reserves, while Shane McAdam kicked 4. Each Jake Bowey (ailment) and also Steven Might (ribs) are examinations for this week, however the duo may certainly not return provided the Dees' finals hopes are actually scurried for 2024. Collingwood's Around 23 teamB: B.Frampton, D.Moore - C, B.MaynardHB: J.Noble, W.Hoskin-Elliott, I.QuaynorC: S.Sidebottom, J.Crisp, J.DaicosHF: B.Hill, L.Schultz, J.ElliottF: B.McCreery, D.McStay, J.HoweFOLL: D.Cameron, N.Daicos, S.PendleburyI/ C: P.Lipinski, J.Bytel, W.Parker, M.Cox, N.LongEMG: H.DeMattia, E.Allan, J.RichardsTeam Tips: The Pies are still an algebraic odds of featuring in September, yet that is actually exceptionally improbable. Recently's emergencies Fin Macrae (34 disposals), Ed Allan (26) and also Joe Richards (23 and 2 goals) were actually with the best in the VFL, however it's difficult to find Craig McRae making a lot of changes at assortment. Wil Parker, Ned Long as well as Jack Bytel would certainly be among the names to make way if improvements were actually made. Ruling Premiers skip finals again|02:04 GEELONG v WEST COASTSaturday August 24, 1:45 pm at GMHBA StadiumGeelong's Sphere 23 teamB: L.Humphries, J.Henry, J.KolodjashnijHB: M.Holmes, M.Blicavs, Z.GuthrieC: S.Mannagh, T.Atkins, O.DempseyHF: T.Stengle, B.Close, G.MiersF: S.Neale, J.Cameron, O.HenryFOLL: R.Stanley, P.Dangerfield - C, T.StewartI/ C: M.Knevitt, J.Bowes, G.Rohan, O.Mullin, M.DuncanEMG: J.Bews, Z.Tuohy, M.HardieTeam Tips: The Kitties will certainly be enthusiastic that Tanner Bruhn (blast) as well as Sam De Koning (leg) are actually accessible for the must-win clash against West Coastline, while the nightclub were "optimistic" that resigning veteran Tom Hawkins could press his scenario at the same time. Zach Tuohy was handled recently and resides in the framework to return, while Brandan Parfitt (28 disposals, ten takes on), Mitch Hardie (26 fingertips, 10 takes on, 2 objectives) as well as Jed Bews (22 disposals and one goal) were all sound for the VFL side. There were no new personal injury issues away from the loss to Street Kilda, however Gary Rohan, Mitch Knevitt, Oisin Mullin and Shannon Neale are actually a few of the names who could possibly fall victim to Chris Scott's axe.West Shore's Around 23 teamB: T.Cole, H.Edwards, B.HoughHB: L.Duggan - C, J.McGovern, J.HuntC: A.Gaff, T.Kelly, R.GinbeyHF: J.Cripps, J.Waterman, T.DewarF: J.Darling, O.Allen, L.RyanFOLL: B.Williams, E.Yeo, H.ReidI/ C: A.Witherden, H.Johnston, Z.Trew, J. Williams, J.PetruccelleEMG: C. Hall, R. Maric, J.HutchinsonTeam Tips: In likely his final game for the nightclub Tom Barrass (back/hamstring) remains in the frame to return recently in what would certainly be a much-needed improvement for Jarrod Schofield's side, that fairly frankly were actually humiliated against Carlton on Sunday. Pro Andrew Gaff has retired to ensure that goes to least one pressured change, yet don't be startled to see Schofield swing the axe. The issue is the Eagles' WAFL edge were pounded through 58 points on the weekend also, so it's not like they have gamers thumping down the door at selection. Ryan Maric (19 fingertips) was an emergency for the AFL side, as was actually Clay Hall, while Campbell Chesser and Jai Culley both participated in WAFL footy on the weekend break too.' One of the most awful you'll view!'|04:50 RICHMOND v GOLD shoreline SUNSSaturday August 24, 2:10 pm at the MCGRichmond's Sphere 23 teamB: B.Miller, N.Balta, N.VlastuinHB: N.Broad, J.Trezise, D.RioliC: J.Ross, D.Prestia, S.BanksHF: R.Mansell, J.Graham, S.CampbellF: S.Bolton, J.Koschitzke, H.RalphsmithFOLL: T.Nankervis - C, T.Taranto, J.HopperI/ C: J.Short, J.Bauer, M.Coulthard, J.Blight, K. McIntoshEMG: T.Dow, K.Smith, S.RyanTeam Tips: The Tigers got through unscathed on an accident front end against Hawthorn on Sunday, however they'll still be actually quite dissatisfied along with their efforts. Matt Coulthard played his second ready 2024 and failed to have an effect, signing up only 3 fingertips and a goal aid just before being actually subbed out in the 3rd region. His replacement Kamdyn McIntosh was strong as soon as injected right into the player, and are going to be actually inspiring of preserving his place in the starting 22 versus the Suns. Unquestionably however, instructor Adem Yze may be driven to participate in the children and also not check into type way too much as his edge wants to elevate themselves off the bottom of the step ladder. Whether Yze and also carbon monoxide choose to play Liam Cook on the back of a two-week stint on the subsidiaries with trauma continues to be to become viewed, but if match, it would make good sense for him to port directly back in. Of the AFL-listed players in the reserves on Sunday morning, Thomson Dow, Tyler Sonsie as well as Maurice Rioli were amongst the very best, as well as are actually all a possibility of sneaking in one ultimate activity at the top level just before season's end.Gold Coast's Round 23 teamB: S.Lemmens, S.Collins, L.WellerHB: B.Uwland, C.Ballard, W.PowellC: N.Holman, N.Anderson, S.ClohesyHF: J.Rogers, J.Walter, B.HumphreyF: M.Rowell, M.Andrew, B.KingFOLL: J.Witts, S.Flanders, T.Miller - CI/C: A.Davies, B.Long, W.Graham, C.Budarick, D.SwallowEMG: A.Sexton, D.Macpherson, N.MoyleTeam Tips: Gold Coastline will definitely possess a single emphasis this weekend break-- gaining their 2nd game straight away from home, and completing 2024 on a higher after an incredibly sub-par season. Ben Long as well as Jake Rogers fell short to possess an effect in the forward line for Damien Hardwick's side last weekend break, however unquestionably weren't alone in that mind. Just how Hardwick chooses his edge for Saturday will be very fascinating, with a number of senior players on the playing list pretty probably taking a look at their final ever before circular as an AFL-listed gamer. As well as there was no shortage of stuffed stat slabs in the reserves' monster 88-point gain Casey on Sunday morning, along with the Suns kicking an immense 27.13. The fell Port Lukosius (25 disposals, 19 credit rating involvements, 14 marks, 5 targets) possessed a surprising match up forward, along with axed colleague Alex Sexton (22 disposals, thirteen score involvements, 11 scores, five targets) not far behind. Outside round pig Rory Atkins possessed his second straight video game with 40 disposals, with 16 of those causing a score engagement. It really feels a bit absurd list every one of the leading entertainers offered simply the amount of there are actually, however Hewago Oea (28 disposals, 17 rating involvements, 2 targets), Ned Moyle (23 fingertips, 29 hitouts, 15 credit rating participations, three goals), Port Mahony (22 fingertips, pair of goals), Will certainly Rowlands (thirteen fingertips, 5 objectives) and also Brayden Fiorini (35 disposals, nine approvals) all are entitled to awareness for filling their shoes in some of the even more outstanding VFL activities in latest years.Latest on Day after "whirlwind 1 day"|01:38 HAWTHORN v NORTH MELBOURNESaturday August 24, 4:35 pm at UTAS StadiumHawthorn's Sphere 23 teamB: K.Amon, S.Frost, H.MorrisonHB: J.Scrimshaw, J.Sicily - C, W.DayC: J.Weddle, D.Moore, J.ImpeyHF: J.Newcombe, C. Precious, J.GunstonF: J.Ginnivan, M.Chol, C.MackenzieFOLL: L.Meek, J.Worpel, C.MacdonaldI/ C: B.Hardwick, M.D' Ambrosio, N.Watson, C.Nash, L.BreustEMG: F.Maginness, J. Serong, J. WardTeam Tips: The Hawks were given a double accident draft in their big gain over the Tigers with both Will Day (collarbone) and also Port Scrimshaw (finger) hurt. Luckily there is a strong odds Scrimshaw plays after a cleanout operation - Jai Serong would be actually a straight swap - while Changkuoth Jiath (calf bone), Finn Maginness (twenty fingertips), Josh Ward (20 disposals, ten takes on) or Seamus Mitchell (37 fingertips, 12 scores, two goals) may be recollected for Time. Anticipate the celebrity midfielder to become in a nationality against opportunity for the eradication ultimate, need to they arrive as expected.North Melbourne's Cycle 23 teamB: A.Corr, C.Comben, L.McDonaldHB: J.Archer, D.Tucker, C.McKercherC: B.Scott, L.Davies-Uniacke, D.StephensHF: Z.Fisher, B.Teakle, E.FordF: P.Curtis, N.Larkey, C.ZurhaarFOLL: T.Xerri, T.Powell, J.Simpkin - CI/C: G.Wardlaw, L.Shiels, K.Dawson, R.Hansen Jr, M.BergmanEMG: Z. Duursma, W.Phillips, T.PinkTeam Tips: North Melbourne will definitely be hopeful that superstar youngster Harry Sheezel is actually offered recently after taking care of an ankle joint concern. The Roos will lack swingman Charlie Comben and also protector Miller Bergman today however, after both suffered traumas in the heavy loss to the Bulldogs. That opens the door for Toby Pink to return as well as possibly Are going to Phillips or Zane Duursma. Jaidyn Stephenson, Charlie Lazzaro as well as Hugh Greenwood were actually one of the most effective in the VFL and could be hired if train Alastair Clarkson opts for to chop and change his edge for the last activity of the year. There was actually no lack of silent artists in the reduction to the Dogs.Lyon takes purpose at Clarkson on field talk|01:36 BRISBANE LIONS v ESSENDONSaturday August 24, 7:25 pm at the GabbaBrisbane's Sphere 23 teamB: D.Zorko, H.Andrews - C, B.StarcevichHB: D.Wilmot, R.Lester, D.JoyceC: J.Fletcher, W.Ashcroft, H.McCluggageHF: C.Rayner, J.Daniher, J.BerryF: C.Cameron, L.Morris, C.Ah CheeFOLL: O.McInerney, J.Dunkley, L.NealeI/ C: K.Lohmann, E.Hipwood, Z.Bailey, S.Brain, H.SharpEMG: D.Robertson, J.Madden, H.SmithTeam Tips: Are modifications needed to have for the Lions, or are they simply in the middle of a minor type blip? In any case, they could obtain Port Payne back coming from his feet accident if they feel the need to play him as soon as possible. And Jarrod Berry appears readied to skip the following number of full weeks at least along with his first fourth hamstring personal injury against Collingwood. Eric Hipwood really did not have his desired impact in his 1st game back, however it will be actually a massive call to omit him on the eve of finals-- particularly given how higher his ceiling is actually. In the VFL's eight-point loss to Collingwood, Jarryd Lyons (41 fingertips, 10 authorizations, nine marks, eight takes on) as well as Darcy Ft (26 fingertips, 30 hitouts, 12 clearances, six inside 50s, two targets) were massive, along with each legitimate options at the variety dining table. Lyons as well as Ft have actually only participated in two total games each this season, yet the previous is firming as a genuine selection to give further reliability in Brisbane's side come crunch time. Neither were called as emergencies recently, however does Fagan right now looked to skilled, in-form campaigners before the appealing younger guns like Henry Johnson and Bruce Reville (hanging exercise)? Essendon's Round 23 teamB: J.Kelly, B.McKay, J.LaverdeHB: N.Martin, M.Redman, A.McGrathC: A.Perkins, D.Parish, A.RobertsHF: H.Jones, N.Caddy, S.DurhamF: K.Langford, J.Stringer, D.ShielFOLL: S.Draper, J.Caldwell, Z.Merrett - CI/C: B.Hobbs, S.Weideman, J.Gresham, N.Bryan, J.MenzieEMG: E.Tsatas, W.Setterfield, P.WrightTeam Tips: Primarily, will Dyson Heppell receive his goodbye activity, even though it isn't facing his Essendon faithful at Marvel Coliseum? You actually would really hope therefore, as the nightclub veteran has actually been much more than serviceable in 2024. They don't possess just about anything yet honor to play for this Sunday evening, yet Jordan Ridley (hip flexor), Matt Guelfi (hindering) as well as Nik Cox (blast) are actually all probably to become accessible to play need to be survive instruction this week. That probably leaves behind sub Jye Menzie as well as Sam Weideman at risk at the variety desk maybe essential Jake Kelly as well. In the VFL edge's 38-point gain Coburg, edge youngster Elijah Tsatas tore it up for his 41 disposals, 13 rating engagements, 8 allowances as well as an objective. Scar Hind and Last will and testament Setterfield were likewise amongst the most ideal, and clean off an arrangement expansion, could Saad El-Hawli produce his debut as he remains to impress?Selfish Lions recorded rejecting colleagues|01:04 SYDNEY SWANS v ADELAIDE CROWSSaturday August 24, 7:40 pm at the SCGSydney's Round 23 teamB: D.Rampe, T.McCartin, N.BlakeyHB: L.Melican, H.Cunningham, O.FlorentC: J.Lloyd, C.Mills - C, E.GuldenHF: L.Parker, H.McLean, J.JordonF: L.McDonald, J.Amartey, W.HaywardFOLL: B.Grundy, I.Heeney, J.RowbottomI/ C: M.Roberts, B.Campbell, C.Cleary, T.Adams, Co.WarnerEMG: A.Francis, P.Ladhams, C.MitchellTeam Tips: Along with the slight premiership all but sown up, carries out John Longmire participate in the wise-- however possibly sneaky-- activity of relaxing some vital stars? You would possibly throw each one of Isaac Heeney, Errol Gulden, Brodie Grundy and possibly Chip Blakey in to that conversation, as well as you are actually possibly not recovering Chad Detector from his minor calf bone complaint. It doesn't appear like something Longmire will carry out, however hey-- the choice's there. Corey Warner reacted well after just playing 16 percent video game opportunity as sub last Friday night, putting up 27 disposals, 10 allowances and also an objective for his edge's reduction. Fellow young mid Angus Sheldrick also had 28 fingertips and 12 authorizations of his very own, and seems to become mature for the choosing if his latest stat slabs are anything to go by. Regardless of opinion the Swans could hurry him back, Tom Papley will not be returning this weekend coming from his ankle joint injury.Adelaide's Cycle 23 teamB: M.Michalanney, M.Keane, M.HingeHB: H.Bond, N.Murray, J.WorrellC: B.Keays, R.Laird, L.ShollHF: D.Curtin, R.Thilthorpe, I.RankineF: S.Berry, D.Fogarty, J.RacheleFOLL: R.O' Brien, J.Dawson - C, M.CrouchI/ C: L.Nankervis, L.Gollant, J.Soligo, L.Murphy, Z.TaylorEMG: C.Jones, B.Dowling, J.BorlaseTeam Tips: After his questionable trauma in Face-off 56, Izak Rankine's period is over and will need to have substituting this Sunday evening. It continues to be to become considered to whether or not Taylor Walker will come back coming from laser device surgery on his eye, along with the Crows possibly inclined to play it secure along with their time over. The showing of Walker's replacement Lachie Gollant was actually disappointing on the back of his eight-goal loot the full week previously, but he probably ought to have a 2nd fracture-- particularly if Walker does not play. Expert Brodie Johnson possessed 34 disposals in the reserves' big win over the Port Magpies, and also might be called upon along with his future beyond 2024 unsure. Young gun Billy Dowling possessed 30 disposals and an objective in the exact same game, and also can find themself ending up the year in the elders if Scars wants to blood youth in the dead-rubber. What Petracca informed colleagues uncovered|02:07 WESTERN SIDE BULLDOGS v GWS GIANTSSunday August 25, 12:30 pm at Mars StadiumWestern Bulldogs' Sphere 23 teamB: T.Duryea, L.Jones, B.KhamisHB: L.Bramble, R.Lobb, B.DaleC: J.Freijah, A.Treloar, B.WilliamsHF: E.Richards, A.Naughton, L.McNeilF: C.Weightman, J.Ugle-Hagan, L.VandermeerFOLL: S.Darcy, M.Bontempelli - C, T.LiberatoreI/ C: C.Daniel, H.Gallagher, J. O'Donnell, R.West, J.MacraeEMG: A. Jones, A. Keath, C. PoulterTeam Tips: They smoked North Melbourne without him, however Tim English is actually no assurance to return this weekend for their match against the Giants in Ballarat. They procured by versus Tristan Xerri, however the orange tsunami last week played both Kieran Briggs and Lachie Keefe, which will posture even more issues than last Sunday if Keefe is actually called. Jason Johannisen is also pushing to return coming from a calf personal injury, however it seems to be much more most likely he'll return with the VFL if fit. There weren't numerous passengers in the AFL edge's sway the Kangaroos, along with Rhylee West subbed out in the 3rd quarter-- his replacement Port Macrae having a blinding 17 disposals and pair of goals from just 38 per-cent video game opportunity. In the books, Ryley Sanders had 35 disposals as well as 7 approvals, while Riley Garcia remains to carry out no incorrect away from the edge for his 29 contacts as well as 9 authorizations. Dominic Bedendo was the most effective up onward of the AFL-listed gamers for Footscray, booting three objectives coming from 16 possessions.GWS' Round 23 teamB: L.Ash, S.Taylor, C.IdunHB: L.Whitfield, J.Buckley, H.PerrymanC: C.Ward, T.Green, F.CallaghanHF: B.Daniels, A.Cadman, T.McMullinF: D.Jones, J.Hogan, T.Greene - CFOLL: K.Briggs, J.Kelly, S.ConiglioI/ C: T.Bedford, L.Keeffe, J.Peatling, H.Himmelberg, C.StoneEMG: X.O' Halloran, H.Thomas, M.GruzewskiTeam Tips: The Giants always keep receiving it performed, and due to the closeness of the 2024 period, are actually today probably premiership favourites after final Sunday's gain. There were no accidents to speak of, yet Lachie Ash was actually suspended for one week after his handle on Docker Hayden Young, and will need to have changing if their tribunal difficulty neglects. In relations to unforced changes, there isn't anybody that urgently needs to have an operate in the books-- although Toby McMullin was peaceful just before being subbed off in the last one-fourth. Will Adam Kingsley linger along with Lachlan Keefe as the edge's second ruck? There's certainly he ought to have a place in the beginning 22, however just how it looks logistically and also structurally will be an important realisation just before they reached the ground running in finals. 2022 mid-season draftee Wade Derksen has proceeded his consistent run of kind before objective in the VFL, booting pair of objectives for the third week going to choose his 25 contacts as well as 12 marks. Emergency Xavier O'Halloran had 26 fingertips, 13 inside 50s and also a target also in an outstanding midfield display. Leek Aleer (twenty fingertips, 10 marks, 9 obstruct belongings) went over down back, and also may be a left-field possibility to replace Ash if required.Saints must allow star vacation in offseason?|00:53 CARLTON v ST KILDASunday August 25, 3:20 pm at Wonder StadiumCarlton's Cycle 23 teamB: B.Kemp, J.Weitering, L.CowanHB: Le.Young, M.McGovern, N.NewmanC: J.Binns, P.Cripps - C, B.AcresHF: O.Hollands, E.Hollands, Z.WilliamsF: M.Owies, M.Kennedy, J.MotlopFOLL: M.Pittonet, S.Walsh, G.HewettI/ C: A.Cincotta, C.Lord, J.Carroll, C.Durdin, A.MoirEMG: H.Lemmey, B.Wilson, D.AkueiTeam Tips: Carlton could acquire a range of players back recently for their ultimate home as well as away argue this season. Twin high rises Charlie Curnow as well as Harry McKay could possibly boost the forward line, while Adam Saad, Jack Martin, Orazio Fantasia and also Caleb Marchbank are actually likewise in an ethnicity versus time to come back. Corey Durdin was actually subbed out along with a dislocated shoulder in the clash versus West Coast. Everything depends on the accessibility of the players above, yet the similarity Ashton Moir, Lewis Youthful, Jesse Motlop and also Jack Carroll could be some of the names on the cutting block.St Kilda's Around 23 teamB: J.Battle, D.Howard, C.WilkieHB: N.Wanganeen-Milera, J.Sinclair, L.StockerC: B.Hill, Z.Jones, R.ByrnesHF: M.Wood, J.Higgins, M.OwensF: A.Caminiti, T.Membrey, C.SharmanFOLL: R.Marshall, J.Steele - C, H.ClarkI/ C: P.Dow, D.Butler, D.Wilson, J.Webster, H.GarciaEMG: B.Paton, T.Campbell, A.McLennanTeam Tips: The Saints is going to likely do without Brad Mountain (back) as well as likely Anthony Caminiti (shoulder) also for their clash against Carlton on Sunday. Youthful weapon Mattaes Phillipou could possibly return coming from sickness, while expert Seb Ross (calf) is actually likewise a test. The Saints possessed a host of gamers execute highly in Sandringham's loss to Geelong, featuring Arie Schoenmaker (27 fingertips, 8 marks, one objective), Riley Bonner (26 disposals) and Angus McLennan (18 disposals). Ryan Byrnes, Paddy Dow and Dan Valet were silent in the big gain however don't count on a lot of unforced improvements given the form the Saints reside in.' It is actually CRAZY' - Kingy roasts Freo protection|02:23 FREMANTLE v slot ADELAIDESunday August 25, 6:10 pm at Optus StadiumFremantle's Cycle 23 teamB: L.Ryan, J.Draper, B.CoxHB: B.Walker, H.Chapman, J.ClarkC: J.O' Meara, H.Young, J.SharpHF: B.Banfield, S.Switkowski, M.FrederickF: J.Amiss, P.Voss, L.JacksonFOLL: L.Reidy, C.Serong - C, A.BrayshawI/ C: N.Fyfe, M.Johnson, C.Wagner, S.Sturt, N.O' DriscollEMG: K.Worner, N.Erasmus, M.WaltersTeam Tips: The Dockers just should win versus the Energy on Sunday-- however there is actually a possibility their period is presently over if results do not go their means. They're probably to acquire their super star set of large men back in Josh Treacy and also Sean Darcy though. That places the similarity Liam Reidy as well as Patrick Voss in the firing line at variety. Guardian Karl Worner was actually the side effect urgent as well as prepares to go, while Neil Erasmus (27 fingertips) and James Aish (30 disposals, one objective) had solid outings for Peeling Thunder.Port Adelaide's Cycle 23 teamB: La.Jones, B.Zerk-Thatcher, M.BergmanHB: L.Evans, A.Aliir, D.HoustonC: J.Burgoyne, O.Wines, W.DrewHF: D.Byrne-Jones, E.Ratugolea, W.RioliF: T.Boak, C.Dixon, C.Rozee - CFOLL: J.Sweet, J.Horne-Francis, Z.ButtersI/ C: R.Burton, K.Farrell, J.Mead, F.Evans, Q.NarkleEMG: J.McEntee, W.Lorenz, D.VisentiniTeam Tips: Slot Adelaide could possibly accept back star forward duo Mitch Georgiades and Todd Marshall for their clash versus the Dockers, supposing both pass physical fitness exams recently. Lachie Jones may be out with an Achilles issue, nonetheless. Will Definitely Lorenz (27 disposals, 12 tackles) as well as Josh Sinn (23 fingertips, 7 signs) were solid in their SANFL side's massive reduction to Adelaide. Ryan Burton could be displaced if Georgiades and also Marshall are both fit, while Quinton Narkle as well as Logan Evans are others that can make way.